In view of the persistently grim and at times abusive reluctance of Pebble representatives to address fully and frankly the issues raised in this discussion at UKPagan by the constituency which Pebble claims to represent by cross-section, as well as the apparent contempt in which they hold those who ask of them legitimate questions, I felt that it would be a good idea to supply those reading this who disagree with Pebble and the manner in which they have treated their equals, those from whom they request support, a means by which they might advise the British government of Pebble’s true nature as revealed in this discussion and also make it clear that Pebble do not speak in their name.
In the first instance this letter may be sent via email to the Diversity Advisory Group of the Office of National Statistics to whom Pebble and PaganDash representative Jon Randall - present in the UKPagan discussion - has proposed spending our taxes on a section of the census which will represent all British pagans as godless by means of the definition of paganism which Pebble has supplied to the Diversity Advisory Group:
“PAGANISM : The umbrella term for spiritualities and religions that recognise the sacred in nature, the environment, ancestry and heritage.”
If anyone wishes to read further on this issue then they may do so at the Fog Bank entry Godless Pagans.
If you choose to email this message or an edited version then please write your full name after the valediction. If you wish then you may also include your postal address for verification purposes. Here is the email address (your default email service will open yet you may paste the address into the address field of the email service of your choice) and the message to paste into your email follows it, in bold type:
census.customerservices@ons.gsi.gov.uk
F.A.O. Census 2011 Diversity Advisory Group (DiAG), formerly Special Populations Advisory Group.
Dear Sir,
I write regarding the organisation known as Pebble which represents itself to you as the “Public Bodies Liaison Committee for British Paganism”. You should be aware that Pebble has no popular mandate to represent British paganism to British public bodies but only the mandate of a statistically insignificant number of people who belong to its constituent groups.
Pebble is a private lobby organisation for several internet-based groups and the interests of their conveners. As most British pagans either do not know of its existence or disapprove of its claims Pebble acknowledges that it speaks only for its membership, the numbers of which are disputable as those members consciously supporting Pebble policy remain uncounted due to their recruitment via websites and the duplication of memberships across these websites. Pebble‘s claim to embody an inclusive array of British pagan belief, practice and opinion is therefore unsustainable. Pebble does not poll the views of British pagans outside of its constituent groups and this together with Pebble‘s claims are a source of dissension within those sections of the British pagan community who are even aware of Pebble, particularly its definition of paganism which excludes those pagans for whom gods are an important part of their lives.
Pebble does not represent either my religious interests or my secular interests as a British pagan. I hereby advise you that Pebble has no authority to enter into any discussions with your office upon my behalf. I would be happy for this message to be forwarded to other offices within your organisation as you feel appropriate.
Yours faithfully,
The above message may be sent as it stands or edited to any public body with which Pebble meets and to which you wish to make the same statement - simply remove the header “F.A.O. Census 2011 Diversity Advisory Group (DiAG), formerly Special Populations Advisory Group.” Pebble has been given the opportunity to address our concerns yet they refuse to do so. Time for us to speak for ourselves and we may at least register our rejection of Pebble's agenda. If you disagree with any of Pebble’s claims then take back the consent which they have claimed from you and speak out for yourself. Let you and your friends stand up and be counted for your own views and not in furtherance of Pebble’s pet projects.
I have posted this message upon the UKPagan discussion mentioned above. I respect UKPagan's stand in determining the content of their boards in the face of those who would be priests and kings and I thank them for maintaining such an excellent and independent forum. They are good people.
Best wishes, everyone.
16 comments:
when you are repeatedly criticising PEBBLE and their lack of interest in gods etc, why do you never link to this page on the PEBBLE website?
http://www.pebble.uk.net/traditions.html
the words god, goddess an gods appear 30 odd times in description of the various pagan paths.
would it be fair to say that you dont mention this section because it knocks your whole argument from the little mound you are sat on?
or that it shows you to be deceitful?
or both?
Hello again Lee, nice to have you back. Shall I pop another tea bag into the pot? Are we expecting Jon?
If Pebble regards so highly the position of gods within pagan religions why then did it elect to exclude all reference of gods from the definition of paganism which they gave to the British government? Oh, I know you will say that gods are implied by the terms religion and spirituality but that’s simply not the case, Lee. The acknowledgement of a deity or deities is not a necessary feature of either spirituality or religion, as can be seen by simple reference to Buddhism, parts of Judaism, parts of the Church of England, many pagans, including atheist pagans, and many people who avoid organised religion and yet celebrate Christmas, go to Tarot readers and watch Most Haunted. If the terms religion and spirituality necessarily imply some things which are found in one religion and not in others then we should expect pagans to sing psalms on Sunday, make salat 5 times a day and wear stylish crushed velvet kippah.
This mention of gods upon the page you give means nothing when set against the fact that the definition of paganism which Pebble gave to the government completely ignores gods and therefore the people who hold them in esteem or worship them - which would be the overwhelming majority of British pagans. Considering that Pebble was allegedly set up to represent British pagans then that’s not really a very good thing to do, is it?
You‘re welcome to post here, Lee, because I have some respect for your achievements past and those which may await you - but try to keep some civil fingers on the end of your hands while you’re on Fog Bank or I’ll remove your posts in future.
civil fingers eh? i dont have enough finger or toes to count the number of times you have been uncivil across the internet.
anyway, no tea for me. just popped by to see if you had posted something to this effect.
wanted to wish you luck on your campaign with the ONS. do let me know how you get on.
p.s 'which they gave to the British government' you mentioned, as you well know, was actually the ONS who used that definition as part of a small trial run of 200 people. hardly as if some document in a red suitcase was ferried in to No. 10. could you keep things in proportion? thanks
Now, Lee, you know as well as I do that Pebble came up with that definition of paganism, not the Office of National Statistics, for the purpose of conducting the 2011 census. It took all of 5 minutes for Pebble to come up with it, I think you mentioned. Are you saying that the test was unimportant and that the ONS are an insignificant arm of the British government?
I don’t have any campaign. I’ve simply reminded people of pagan beliefs and practices that if they do not feel that Pebble speaks for them then they have a perfect right to say so.
Why do you bother with Pebble, anyway? Your energies would be much better applied to your reconstruction work.
"for the purpose of conducting the 2011 census."
incorrect. see my previous post.
"It took all of 5 minutes for Pebble to come up with it, I think you mentioned."
incorrect. i have already told you it was formed over a couple of days
"Are you saying that the test was unimportant and that the ONS are an insignificant arm of the British government?"
as i have told you before, no it wasn't important, it was a trial study involving 200 people to see if their questioning, layout etc was suitable. interestingly, from the ONS website 'The UK Statistics Authority is an independent body operating at arm's length from government as a non-ministerial department'. probably as far as you can get from being 'The Government' without being totally independant.
"I don’t have any campaign. I’ve simply reminded people of pagan beliefs and practices that if they do not feel that Pebble speaks for them then they have a perfect right to say so."
encouraging people to send off a standard email/letter sounds like something you normally find in the Daily Mail. Their motivation is to rile up their readers and increase circulation. what's your?
Why do you bother with Pebble, anyway? Your energies would be much better applied to your reconstruction work.
perhaps i prefer to use my intellect to do something constructive. why not try using your evident intellect to do something positive for once? contribute something to the pagan community you have such an interest in. rather then spending all these years being snide and derogatory. or is it just easier to knock the efforts of others than to go out and make your own?
oh, an excellent beginning in your new journey of positive and constructive interaction would be to come to Flag fen next month. you would be welcomed as would positive and constructive input.
The email's got a typo in it - 'As most British pagans either do not know of it's existence' should read 'As most British pagans either do not know of its existence'. Not that anyone will notice, probably.
"It took all of 5 minutes for Pebble to come up with it, I think you mentioned."
incorrect. i have already told you it was formed over a couple of days
Then why did you post on UKP the following?
"the definition was asked for at the last minute for a small study done by the ONS. needed to be 15 words long as part of the study for which it might not even be needed anyway. the one on the PEBBLE website was knocked up and used."
http://thevalley.ukpagan.com/index.php?showtopic=24097&view=findpost&p=258771
The phrases 'last minute' and 'knocked up' does not put forward the idea that much time or thought was spent on that definition.
"why not try using your evident intellect to do something positive for once? contribute something to the pagan community you have such an interest in."
He just did - I never would have had the patience to type out an email like he did. he saved me precious time, plus gave me the impetus to make sure I have been counted as not being part of Pebble.
Just because you disapprove, doesn't make it not constructive. :)
so Jools, you saw those two well known figures of speech and for some reason understood to be literal?
oh - kaaay
Lee, when you are discussing a definition to be put forward to the Government to describe between 40,000 and 250,000 people, I would have thought a bit more care would have been used. If you wish to be taken seriously of course which, given your responses here and in UK Pagan, I very much doubt.
Your contempt for your peers is astounding!
Lee, Your post has been removed because you did not heed my request that you be civil.
Please try again. You're welcome as long as you are civil.
Hello Lee.
“incorrect. see my previous post.”
The godless definition of paganism which Pebble supplied to Office of National Statistics:
“PAGANISM : The umbrella term for spiritualities and religions that recognise the sacred in nature, the environment, ancestry and heritage.”
is the foundation of their work on pagan inclusion in the 2011 census. It is the definition, godless, which will apply to each and every person who chooses the pagan option, if it appears, in the 2011 census.
“incorrect. i have already told you it was formed over a couple of days”
Yes, you said this but you also said that this was “knocked up” at the “last minute” and that Thorskegga Thorn, a heathen Pebble partner, vetoed any mention of gods in the definition of paganism which Pebble gave to the government. Well, this is your version - Jon has a different version which lays the responsibility for the veto at the feet of Emma Restall-Orr (Bobcat). Considering Thosekegga’s somewhat less than traditional regard for gods it’s perhaps not unusual that this veto should have been spoken, yet the rest of Pebble went along with this, presumably because Thorskegga or Emma put forward some rationale. It’s fair to suppose, then, that Pebble have greater regard for the government and for the civil service than they have for gods. Of course, if the rest of Pebble did not agree in their hearts with this decision despite their acquiescence then it raises the question of who is in charge at Pebble, considering that Jon seems to imply that Emma took it upon herself put the description together without consulting even her Pebble colleagues, never mind the membership. All told, pretty slapdash for an organisation which had been in existence for something like 2 years to that point.
“as i have told you before, no it wasn't important, it was a trial study involving 200 people to see if their questioning, layout etc was suitable.”
If the definition upon which the study depends is unimportant then why has Jon wasted so much of his time on it and so many words defending it? The same question may be asked of you, Lee. Why are you wasting so much time on a trifling matter?
“interestingly, from the ONS website 'The UK Statistics Authority is an independent body operating at arm's length from government as a non-ministerial department'. probably as far as you can get from being 'The Government' without being totally independant.”
Still quote-mining after all these years, eh, Lee? Let’s read further:
“The Authority's overall objective is to promote and safeguard the quality of official statistics that serve the public good. It is also required to safeguard the comprehensiveness of official statistics, and ensure good practice in relation to official statistics.”
Now, for what purpose is the census carried out? Look you:
“A census is a survey of all people and households in the country. It provides essential information from national to neighbourhood level for government, business, and the community.”
Now, are you still going to claim that the people who carry out the census are irrelevant to the process of government? Let’s see what Jon thinks:
“The point being is more one of representation, and inclusion. The ONS has a mandate of inclusion, and is charged with supplying data for and to various services. These include things such as chaplaincy provision in hospitals, and prisons. It also includes forms of wording for education needs. Therre are some centralised government processes that it would be advantageous for Pagans to know our true numbers. The Hor one, will be given greater weight if it can be shown that there are a number of people wanting just that service. te PF in scotland have been able to achieve so much precisely because they had firm figures.”
So, Jon seems to disagree with you. Of course, the idea that a census will permit pagan inclusion into these services is barmy, when we all know that pagan belief and practise is incredibly diverse, with random instances of paganism likely to be so different one from another that the uniqueness of snowflakes melts away in comparison. There cannot be a pagan chaplain who will meet the needs of any pagan. There cannot be a pagan hospital visitor who will meet the needs of any pagan. There cannot be a pagan education that will meet the needs of all children or adults. Jon and the rest of Pebble - which includes you, Lee - are fooling yourselves by thinking otherwise.
“encouraging people to send off a standard email/letter sounds like something you normally find in the Daily Mail. Their motivation is to rile up their readers and increase circulation. what's your?”
I have not encouraged people to do anything which is not already in their minds. If people are dissatisfied with the way two Pebble representatives - yourself, Lee Davies, and Jon Randall - arrived upon the UKPagan discussion like a couple of flying pickets in an attempt to close down any discussion of Pebble in general and in particular its dealings with the Office for National Statistics, and also to insult and defame the participants, then they may take action by advising the relevant office of Pebble’s true nature as a private lobby group for a small group of individuals who do not represent British paganism and make a personal statement that Pebble do not speak in their name.
“perhaps i prefer to use my intellect to do something constructive.”
Do you think it is more constructive to make people smile or to make them angry? Perhaps you think that the most productive thing which you can do is run around shooting off posts at the behest of people like Craig and Jon. Do they own you?
“why not try using your evident intellect to do something positive for once? contribute something to the pagan community you have such an interest in.”
I refer you to the opening post of this discussion.
“rather then spending all these years being snide and derogatory. or is it just easier to knock the efforts of others than to go out and make your own?”
Again, opening post. Oh, and while we are talking about snide both yourself and Jon could teach me more than several things about that. I have given you more than many chances to improve your manners, Lee, and you have wasted these. Incidentally - has Jon found anyone to initiate him into Wicca yet?
"oh, an excellent beginning in your new journey of positive and constructive interaction would be to come to Flag fen next month. you would be welcomed as would positive and constructive input."
Thanks for reminding me, Lee. Must reply to your other boss soon.
Thank you, Bo. It was something of a catastrophe, that apostrophe.
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